View source for Talk:2020 Danish mink cull

{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|
{{WikiProject Denmark |importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject COVID-19 |importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Politics |importance=Low}}
}}
== Requested move 5 October 2022 ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''
----
<span id="reqmovetag"></span>{{check talk wp}}
{{If mobile|tag=div
| <small>'''{{smallcaps|result:}}'''</small><br />'''[[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Three possible outcomes|Moved]]''' to '''[[2020 Danish mink cull]]''', because this title was suggested by more than one editor. [[WP:OTHEROPTIONS]] is invoked since there is consensus that the current title needs to be changed. Since no title suggested below enjoys consensus, if an editor thinks there is a better title, then a new move request can be opened at any time. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; everyone [[Template:Clickable button/Publish buttons|stay&nbsp;healthy]]''!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I.&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''&thinsp;,&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;<small>05:10, 25 October 2022 (UTC)</small>
----
| {{Tmbox
|small = 
|imageright = [[File:Symbol question.svg|30px]]
|image = [[File:Wikipedia page mover.svg|45px]]
|type = move
|text = It was proposed in this section that [[:The Mink Case]] be [[Wikipedia:Moving a page|renamed and moved]]&#32;somewhere else, with the name being decided below.
----
<small>'''{{smallcaps|result:}}'''</small><br />'''[[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Three possible outcomes|Moved]]''' to '''[[2020 Danish mink cull]]''', because this title was suggested by more than one editor. [[WP:OTHEROPTIONS]] is invoked since there is consensus that the current title needs to be changed. Since no title suggested below enjoys consensus, if an editor thinks there is a better title, then a new move request can be opened at any time. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; everyone [[Template:Clickable button/Publish buttons|stay&nbsp;healthy]]''!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I.&nbsp;Ellsworth</span>]]'''''&thinsp;,&nbsp;[[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r&nbsp;there</sup>]]&nbsp;<small>05:10, 25 October 2022 (UTC)</small>
----
<div class="floatleft" style="font-size:75%">''Move logs: [{{fullurl:Special:Log/move|page={{Urlencode:The Mink Case}}}} source title]{{·}} [{{fullurl:Special:Log/move|page={{Urlencode:?}}}} target title]''</div>
<div class="floatright" style="font-size:65%">''This is template {{tls|Requested move/end}}''</div>
<!-- This is template "Requested move/end". -->
 }}
}}

[[The Mink Case]] → ? – I think the name of this article should be reconsidered. First, should The be in the title? [[WP:THE]] seems to say no, but I think it gets tricky with translations. [[Mink Commission]] does not use The, even though the Danish word is definite.

Second, should we consider the title a [[proper noun]]? I mostly see it uncapitalised in Danish publications,<ref>https://denstoredanske.lex.dk/minksagen</ref><ref>https://www.bt.dk/samfund/advokatundersoegelse-modsiger-mette-frederiksens-forsvar-i-minksagen</ref><ref>https://www.berlingske.dk/kronikker/juraprofessor-har-vendt-hver-en-sten-kan-statsministeren-straffes-for</ref><ref>https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2022-06-16-dokumentar-kan-faa-betydning-naar-ansvaret-for-minksagen-skal-placeres</ref><ref>https://www.altinget.dk/artikel/mette-frederiksen-forsvarer-embedsmaend-i-minksagen-lev-med-det</ref><ref>https://jyllands-posten.dk/politik/ECE14202336/kommission-statsministeriets-departementschef-kan-drages-til-ansvar-i-minksagen/</ref><ref>https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/mette-frederiksen-faar-en-naese-sin-rolle-i-minksagen</ref><ref>https://nyheder.tv2.dk/politik/2022-09-22-yderligere-tre-embedsmaend-faar-advarsel-i-minksagen</ref>, but some do capitalise it,<ref>https://www.information.dk/indland/2022/09/professorer-nye-borgerliges-retlige-vurdering-minksagen-baade-juridisk-forkert-problematisk</ref><ref>https://nyheder.tv2.dk/politik/2022-09-20-to-embedsmaend-slipper-med-advarsel-i-minksagen</ref> including [[:da:Minksagen|the Danish Wikipedia article]]. English publications vary widely. Some translate it as "mink case",<ref>https://cphpost.dk/?p=120516</ref><ref>https://www.politico.eu/article/danish-pm-frederiksen-under-pressure-over-mink-cull/</ref> others use the term "minkgate",<ref>https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/09/world/europe/denmark-mink.html</ref> "Minkgate",<ref>https://cphpost.dk/?p=129957</ref> "mink gate"<ref>https://www.forbes.com/sites/danieladelorenzo/2022/04/30/what-is-going-on-with-the-danish-mink-gate/?sh=21134fab158b</ref> or "Mink gate".<ref>https://www.9news.com.au/world/coronavirus-updates-denmark-pm-defends-mink-cull-during-pandemic/7d023341-3532-44bd-82af-d6a1c55c759f</ref> I can't access it, but this journal article has "Minkgate" and "minksagen" (lit. ''the mink case'') as keywords.<ref>https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4137749</ref> Some Danish publications also use the term mink gate, but this appears to be limited.<ref>https://politiken.dk/debat/debatindlaeg/art8007070/M%C3%A5ske-var-den-ulovlige-ordre-lovlig</ref><ref>https://ugebrev.dk/finans/finans-markedsovervaagning/mink-gate-medierne-skal-holde-sig-parat-til-kaempe-skandale/</ref>


I see these possibilities:

1. [[Mink case]]. This is the name I lean the most towards; it is arguably the best translation considering proper nouns and is in line with [[WP:THE]] and [[Mink Commission]] when it comes to the definite article.

2. Some variation of mink gate. Seems to be a pretty widely used term in non-Danish media.

3. [[Minksagen]]. No translation at all is not unprecedented, e.g. [[Folketing]] (here the definite article is excluded), but per [[WP:TRANSLITERATE]] should only be done with terms that are consistently used non-translated in English sources, which does not seem to be the case here.

4. [[Mink Case]] would be following the Danish article with regards to capitalization while continuing the precedent with regards to definite articles set by [[Mink Commission]] and [[WP:THE]] (arguably also [[Folketing]]).
{{Reflist-talk}}

[[User:Stowgull|Stowgull]] ([[User talk:Stowgull|talk]]) 20:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC) <small>—&nbsp;'''''Relisting.'''''&nbsp;— ''Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung'', ''[[User:Mellohi!|mello]]'''''[[User talk:Mellohi!|hi!]]''' ([[Special:Contributions/Mellohi!|投稿]]) 05:01, 16 October 2022 (UTC)</small>

:I propose [[2020–2021 Danish mink scandal]], in lieu of the usual title format for events. [[User:S k y r|S k y r]] ([[User talk:S k y r|talk]]) 21:08, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
:'''I suggest {{-r|2020 Denmark mink slaughter}}'''. The term "case" seems like it refers to a specific legal case, but this article describes much more than that, including the slaughter itself, a change of law in support of the action that had been taken, and a subsequent breeding ban. "Mink gate" or "Minkgate" seems too sensationalistic. The title suggested by [[User:S k y r|S k y r]] is also not bad, although it focuses only on the controversy (with the word "scandal" being somewhat non-neutral) and the ending date of 2021 may be premature. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 22:05, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
:"The Mink Case" sounds like a [[Nancy Drew]] mystery about a stolen fur coat. It also does not match Wikipedia article title style; there's no need for "The" and it's not used as a proper noun, so it shouldn't be capitalized. I'm unsure of the correct name. "Danish mink scandal" implies that the killing of the animals is not an issue. "Denmark mink slaughter" uses the pejorative word ''slaughter'' where ''killing'' is sufficient. Maybe there are other notable issues in Denmark involving minks, but barring that, the years are unnecessary. Maybe "Danish mink killing" or "Danish COVID-19 mink infection", but I'm not sure.&nbsp;[[User:SchreiberBike|SchreiberBike&nbsp;]]&#124;[[User talk:SchreiberBike#top|&nbsp;⌨&nbsp;]] 13:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
::I don't personally think of ''slaughter'' as pejorative. To me it seems like the ordinary term to use to the killing of animals by humans for most purposes, e.g. per the [[Animal slaughter]] article. To me it also seems especially appropriate to use for the killing of a large number of animals in a wholesale manner. However, I suppose ''killing'' is basically a synonym in this context if others prefer it. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 17:53, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
:::In my mind, ''slaughter'' outside of the context of meat production seems to be indicate something much worse than ''killing'', but I don't feel strongly about it. If that sounds good to others, I'd support that.&nbsp;[[User:SchreiberBike|SchreiberBike&nbsp;]]&#124;[[User talk:SchreiberBike#top|&nbsp;⌨&nbsp;]] 19:07, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
:::The word by reliable sources is "cull".[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/30/denmarks-covid-mass-mink-cull-no-legal-justification-report] [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62001162][https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/01/world/europe/denmark-mink-report-covid.html] "Slaughter" can definitely be seen as biased. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 19:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
::::I was wondering if someone was going to bring up "''cull''". I have a pretty strong objection to the word "''cull''" in this context. It's a clear violation of [[WP:EUPHEMISM]]. See the [[Culling]] article. Properly, "culling" is "segregating" out a ''subset'' of a breeding population based on their particular characteristics. It is ''not'' the proper term for killing the ''entire'' breeding population of all of them. See also the definitions given by [[Wikt:cull|Wikt:''cull'']]. Its primary definition says that "''cull''" refers to separating out some ''subset'' of animals "from a larger group". That is not what happened to the mink in Denmark. All of them were killed, not just some selected portion of them. Its <s>third</s> fourth sense is the one that is used to refer to this topic, a meaning that Wiktionary labels as "nonstandard" and "euphemistic". Wikipedia avoids euphemisms. Not all sources do, but Wikipedia prefers using direct terminology to clearly express what it is saying in plain language. On Wikipedia, people die, not "pass over"; they have sex rather than "make love", and wars have "civilian casualties", not "collateral damage". —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 23:17, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
:::::I've looked up the definition of "cull" at [https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/cull Britannica], [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cull Merriam-Webster], and [https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cull Collins], and none uses "euphemism" in its definition.  While it's correct that a cull usually involves killing a part of a herd, as opposed to the entire group, I  don't agree that it's inaccurate here.  Our current article at [[Culling]] states that "''culling often refers to the act of killing removed animals (...) as a means of preventing infectious disease transmission.''"  It's a perfectly fine word to use, and also the common name. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 15:52, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
::::::If you read the definitions in all three of your cited sources, they are all about selecting a ''subset'' or reducing the ''size'' of a population{{snd}} not killing the entire population. Each of those sources provides only two definitions. The fourth definition provided by Wiktionary is the euphemistic one that applies here{{snd}} i.e. other kinds of killing. That definition is not even mentioned in your sources. Based on your own sources, the word should not be used, because this action does not fit either of the two definitions provided in those sources. If ''killing'' is what we mean, we should just use ''killing'' or something else that clearly has that meaning, not ''culling'', which primarily has meanings that don't fit what is being described. As for the Wikipedia [[Culling]] article, your own quote is about killing the "removed animals"{{snd}} i.e. the subset{{snd}} not the entire population, and Wikipedia shouldn't really be used as a source for itself anyway. It would be fine to use ''cull'' if only the animals at certain farms or in a certain region of the country were killed, but here the breeding population was eliminated rather than reduced. Consider [[cane toad]]s in Australia, [[brown tree snake]]s in Guam and [[Burmese pythons]] in Florida{{snd}} people are trying to kill them in those places, not cull the breeding stock. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 16:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
:::::::While I entirely disagree with your interpretation of three reliable dictionary definitions here, it's not even that important.  [[WP:COMMONNAME]] is the policy.  We're not going to rename [[Boston Tea Party]] because it doesn't meet the definition of a [[wikt:tea party]].  I'll also note that [[WP:NPOVNAME]]; article titles aren't always entirely neutral. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 22:36, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
::::::I also find this confusing, as the German translation of ''culling'', ''Keulung'', only refers to emergency mass killing in case of a disease outbreak. The German wikipedia article thus only focuses on this definition. [[User:S k y r|S k y r]] ([[User talk:S k y r|talk]]) 20:55, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
:<small>'''Relisting comment''': Participants are still trying to hash out which move destination to use. — ''Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung'', ''[[User:Mellohi!|mello]]'''''[[User talk:Mellohi!|hi!]]''' ([[Special:Contributions/Mellohi!|投稿]]) 05:01, 16 October 2022 (UTC)</small>
* Since I've actually not !voted yet, '''move to [[2020 Danish mink cull]]'''. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 17:16, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
* '''Use "2020 Danish mink cull"''' or any other option that doesn't over-capitalize. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 06:27, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div>

== Article requires heavy cleanup ==

This article seems to have been carelessly translated and formatted from the Danish equivalent and/or from Danish news sources. I added a copyedit template to the top of the article.  [[User:NipponGinko|NipponGinko]] ([[User talk:NipponGinko|talk]]) 21:33, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

:I've made a draft under [[User:S_k_y_r/Workzone/2020_Danish_mink_slaughter]] in order to not have what is basically a construction site in the main article space; since I do not have much time to edit each day.
:I'll try and fix up translation mistakes, but ultimately it may be faster to rewrite entire paragraphs or even the entire article. Lots of information is repeated, superfluous  or spread out over multiple paragraphs. Please feel free to add suggestions as I'm new to editing and rewriting. [[User:S k y r|S k y r]] ([[User talk:S k y r|talk]]) 23:30, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
::I have now pasted a restructured version of the article, such that the paragraphs and the table of contents are more concise. [[User:S k y r|S k y r]] ([[User talk:S k y r|talk]]) 20:52, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
:Unfortunately, the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2020_Danish_mink_cull&type=revision&diff=1113654988&oldid=1108911865 translation from the Danish Wikipedia] on 2 October did not include the references (some 167 [https://da.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Minksagen&oldid=11261845 at the time of the translation]). [[User:Gobonobo|<span style="font-family:DejaVu Sans; color: #333300">gobonobo</span>]] [[User talk:Gobonobo|<sup>+</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Gobonobo|<sup>c</sup>]] 21:42, 2 November 2022 (UTC)