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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MaxBrowne (talk | contribs) at 03:00, 1 May 2018 (→"the Church" or "the church"?: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Good articleCatholic Church has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
On this day... Article milestones
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January 30, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
February 7, 2008Good article nomineeListed
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April 8, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
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July 19, 2008Good article reassessmentKept
October 4, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
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May 31, 2011Peer reviewReviewed
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April 4, 2015Good article nomineeListed
On this day... A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on March 27, 2007.
Current status: Good article

Toolbox

removal of unsourced claims

I've removed the following unsourced claims.
1) Unlike other charities, however, the Catholic Church does not reveal its total wealth for unknown reasons.[1]

  • No source for this claim has been presented.

2) A study in 2018 found the Catholic Church's net worth to be worth over US$30bn in Australia alone.[1][2][2]

  • This is actually a blatant misrepresentation of the sources in many ways. None of the sources says "study", but "investigation" and "valuation". More relevant is that both sources clearly state that the $30 bn figure is an extrapolation. Most important, the cited figure does not represent the "net worth", but "land and buildings" resp. "property and other assets". Net worth has a different definition. --Túrelio (talk) 21:43, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Vedelago, Royce Millar, Ben Schneiders, Chris (2018-02-11). "Catholic Church's massive wealth revealed". The Sydney Morning Herald. Retrieved 2018-03-31.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  2. ^ Vedelago, Royce Millar, Ben Schneiders and Chris. "Catholic Inc: What the Church is really worth". The Age. Retrieved 2018-03-31.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
1. Other major charities such as the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and the Harvard University publish their wealth to provide transparency about their mission, see also List of wealthiest organizations.
2. Study is the more neutral term but we can say "In 2018 an investigation found"...
3. As far as I am aware "net worth" is the correct term - it means your total net worth - so everything including land and properties. See also https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/net_worth
--CarlPhilippTrump.me (talk) 22:10, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ad 1. That's WP:OR. You need to provide a valid source for your statement. Your own (or my own) conclusions are irrelevant and not valid as source.
Ad 3. "after all liabilities have been deducted from the true market value, as opposed to the book value, of the assets" — and that's exactly NOT what these newspaper articles report. So, it's not "net worth" and you misrepresent both sources. --Túrelio (talk) 22:22, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
1. The Catholic Church does not publish its total wealth - that is a fact. So do you think we should reference something like this link?
2. So "book value" is better you think?
--CarlPhilippTrump.me (talk) 22:27, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment -- @CarlPhilippTrump.me: Not sure if you should be editing this article. You've shown you are searching for sources to fit a narrative you believe is true. You're using synthesis and original research to fit your own point of view. Get consensus on this talk page before making other editions which you know would be controversial. And yes, I oppose the additions you've tried to place into the article for the reasons stated above. Dave Dial (talk) 22:52, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I mentioned below, I won’t have too much time to contribute in the next few days, but I have restored to this pages stable version. The recent changes by multiple editors had too many policy issues to dissect individually as has been pointed out above. Any restoration of the changes requires consensus per WP:ONUS. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:58, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Absolute Monachry

The Catholic Church / Holy See is an absolute monarchy - see "government type" in CIA's factbook (CIA link). User:Dave Dial has deleted the relevant info. I have reverted it. ‎ ‎ --CarlPhilippTrump.me (talk) 13:32, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I’m on vacation, so I won’t be able to contribute that frequently for the next few days, but that is either a blatant misrepresentation of the sourcing or synthesis and complete OR. The Holy See is a sovereign entity that is an absolute monarchy under the Bishop of Rome/The Pope. The Catholic Church is a religious organization that has an episcopal polity. You are conflating the Holy See with the Catholic Church. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:55, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Carl, the CIA Factbook states that the Holy See(Vatican City) is an ecclesiastical elective monarchy, but it describes itself as an absolute monarchy. Also, your changes include more than that, with the wording of your additions looking like obvious POV. Also, you seem to be on a mission against the Catholic Church(per your own user page), while I don't really have an issue with them one way or the other. So I would suggest you edit other articles for awhile. Brush up on some core policies here, then wade into the articles that draw some controversies. Dave Dial (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have added "ecclesiastical elective monarchy; self-described as an "absolute monarchy" " to the relevant section of the infobox. That should be the exact representation of the CIA source. --CarlPhilippTrump.me (talk) 14:13, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the Holy See bit as governance because it fails WP:V. The article does not claim that the Holy See governs the Catholic Church, but rather that the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Pope is called the Holy See. Referring to it as "governance" is a bit odd and an oversimplification (and I am not anti-infobox). The issue here is that you are misrepresenting the sourcing. It does not claim that the Catholic Church (a religious organization) is an absolute monarchy. It claims that the sovereign international entity, the Holy See, self-describes itself as such. The Holy See is not the Catholic Church, and the CIA does not say that the Catholic Church is an absolute monarchy.
Since there is nothing in the article that claims direct governance of the entire Church by the Holy See (again, easily verifiable as not true: look at Eastern Catholic Churches and even local dioceses of the Latin Church, where local patriarchs, major archbishops, metropolitans, local bishops, and synods provide a significant level of governance in their own local territory and who also share in the governance of the entire Catholic Church.
In response to your continuing to edit war over the monarchy bit, I removed the entire governance section from the infobox as needing discussion and consensus. I think leaving that parameter blank is ideal, but if there is consensus for restoration, the monarchy bit would not be appropriate as it could be misunderstood as stating that the Catholic Church as a whole is a monarchy, and sourcing has not been provided for that as of yet. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:28, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why in WikiProject Statistics?

Anyone know? Wqwt (talk) 06:14, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 10 April 2018

"civilisations" in first paragraph must be changed to "civilizations" Aramirezruiz (talk) 04:00, 10 April 2018 (UTC)Aramirezruiz[reply]

Aramirezruiz, I’m involved on this page so I will not be editing through protection or formally declining the request, but that is the correct British English spelling, and this page is written in British English. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:05, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: @Aramirezruiz: The article is in non-Oxford British English—or at least, the majority of the article is. There are a few places where, for instance, the spelling of recognise needs corrected. That said, since the article is in British English, I see no compelling reason presented to change the spellings to either Oxford British or American. —C.Fred (talk) 04:17, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Languages in Infobox

Having three languages at the top of the Infobox is a bit much, and I would request that all but the English and Latin names be removed. Latin, while not strictly necessary, is the official legal language of the Church, while Greek is a language used by a small minority, and Italian has no status other than as an approved vernacular for the liturgy. –Zfish118⋉talk 03:24, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:03, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request, April 17, 2018

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:55, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2018

The following statement should be corrected to conform to the policy on articles having a neutral point of view: "In the account of the Confession of Peter found in the Gospel of Matthew, Christ designates Peter as the "rock" upon which Christ's church will be built"

It is merely the interpretation of the Roman Catholic church that this is the meaning of this passage. Therefore, the text should be edited to reflect this fact. HDavi (talk) 15:59, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion: "According to the Catholic interpretation of the account of the Confession of Peter found in the Gospel of Matthew, Christ designates Peter as the "rock" upon which Christ's church will be built" — Preceding unsigned comment added by HDavi (talk • contribs) 16:02, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done the full text of the quote from Britannica on this is:

Though in the past some authorities considered that the title, meaning “rock,” refers to Jesus himself or to Peter’s faith, the consensus of the great majority of scholars today is that the most obvious and traditional understanding should be construed—namely, that the title refers to the person of Peter. In John the title was granted at what may have been the first meeting between Jesus and Simon (1:42). Thus, when the name was given is open to question, but that the name was given by Jesus to Simon seems fairly certain. Matthew goes on to state that upon this rock—that is, upon Peter—the church will be built.

We report what the sourcing says, not the views of individual editors. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:04, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"the Church" or "the church"?

What is the correct capitalization when referring to "the church" / "the Church" as a shorthand for "the Roman Catholic Church"? The article should be internally consistent whatever the decision is. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:40, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You might want the start an RFC if this gets too controversial, but I almost sure you spell it Church with a capital C. L293D (☎ • ✎) 01:50, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Predictably, this was argued about 10 years ago with no consensus. I have no strong opinion, it might well depend on which particular style guide you prefer, but the wikipedia community needs to decide one way or the other and put it in the MOS. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:19, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Its very clear here and many other places that "Church" is written with a capital C. If you fing sources that disagree with that, then start an RfC. From what my research shows, church as a building is not capitalized but Church as a institution is. L293D (☎ • ✎) 02:32, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to be contradicted by MOS:INSTITUTIONS.
Incorrect (generic): The University offers programs in arts and sciences.
Correct (generic): The university offers programs in arts and sciences.
Correct (title): The University of Delhi offers programs in arts and sciences.
As I said it likely comes down to your preferred style guide. The Guardian style guide for example has lower case. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:58, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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