Talk:Barghawata

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Veroonikka99.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:ERA

This edit established the usage of the page as BC/AD. Kindly maintain it consistently, pending a new consensus to the contrary. (That said, only the very first date on the page needs to be labelled so that we know we're not talking about AH dating. The rest don't need a label at all.) — LlywelynII 01:46, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Origin of the Barghawata

The Barghawata unequivocally claimed Israelite descent, this claim is also supported by most (see below) scholars today. The claim that they were of Berber descent is a fringe view, at best some scholars consider them as Judeo-Berbers. (talk) 07:12, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Some Berber tribes, like the Baragwata in northwest Africa, claimed descent from the Israelite of Simeon (Shimon). https://books.google.fr/books?id=keD9z1XWuNwC&pg=PA281

Al Bakri atribuye la denominación de Tarifa a Tarif ibn Salih al-Isra'ili, fundator de la herejía de los bargawatas en el Norte de Africa hacia al año 752. Este personaje se consideraba descendiente de Simeon, vastago de Jacob, hijo de Isaac. https://books.google.fr/books?id=wfLxgo41LioC&pg=PA129

The fact that the Barghawati ambassador himself claims this as their sacred genealogy, combined with the other names of their leaders such as Yunus (Jonah) and al-Yasa’, or Alisha’ (Elisha), certainly makes Slousch’s (1910) argument about the ‘Jewish connection’ seem more plausible. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13629380601099484?src=recsys&journalCode=fnas20

The first source is unreliable for this article.

The second is a misrepresentation. The source says that, "Al Bakri attributes the name of Tarifa to Tarif ibn Salih al-Isra'ili, founder of the heresy of the Bargawatas in North Africa around 752. This character considered himself a descendant of Simeon, the offspring of Jacob, son of Isaac." So It's al-Bakri's claim not the author's and the claim is just about the founder not the tribe as a whole.

Again a misrepresentaion of the source. Why you didn't use all the note? "However, this geneal-ogy—precisely because it is a sacred genealogy should be understood as a way of giving legitimacy to their line. Since the Jewish presence in that part of North Africa was so ancient and deeply rooted, we can understand the Barghawata’s familiarity with the names, and perhaps with some of the rituals of the Jewish residents, without postulating a genetic relationship between the beliefs of the Barghawata and those of Maghribi Jews."

And why are you removing the Encylopaedia of islam? Why should we use your misrepresentions and not the Encylopaedia of islam?

And why are you claiming in the article that they were an ethnoreligious group. Is this your theory? or what?

The claim that they were of Berber descent is a fringe view, at best some scholars consider them as Judeo-Berbers. Are you calling the Encyclopaedia of islam, Encyclopédie berbère, Studies in West African Islamic History, etc and all other secondary reliable sources, fringe. I'm sorry but you are the one who's pushing a fringe view and misrepresenting the views of other sources.

-TheseusHeLl (talk) 07:27, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

The Encylopaedia of Islam is the work of one scholar, it does not represent the scholarly consensus concerning the Barghawata. Why are you removing reliable sources to push your berberist agenda? Nobody speaks Berber in the Chaouia region and the tribes there either claim Arab or Jewish descent. --Afer Ephraimite (talk) 07:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

"The Encylopaedia of Islam is the work of one scholar" Ha Ha okay (@Kansas Bear: hey look what we got in here, another "EI2 is not reliable" type). Actually "The Encylopaedia of Islam" represents the scholarly consensus. It's a standard reference work in the field of Islamic studies. And the author Le Tourneau is a historian and a specialist of the North African history, and the work is edited by five editors. Why are you removing reliable sources to push your berberist agenda It's you that is removing reliable sources and misrepresenting other sources to push an agenda. And stop the non civil Berberist accusations. Nobody speaks Berber in the Chaouia region and the tribes there either claim Arab or Jewish descent. I don't care what modern chaouia people speaks or claim. -TheseusHeLl (talk) 08:02, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Your source is outdated (1960) and does not represent the current scholarly consensus among historians. Modern scholars like John Iskander, Mordechai Nisan and Joaquin Vallve Bermejo agree that they claimed Israelite descent. --Afer Ephraimite (talk) 08:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Why are you claiming that "After the Arab conquest of North Africa, most African tribes abandoned Judaism for Islam. At the beginning of the 8th century (739-742), several Jewish chieftains formed a coalition led by Maysara al-Matghari in the westernmost part of North Africa, this coalition successfully defeated the Muslims and managed to form their own state on the Atlantic coast between Safi and Salé" while the source never says this and it's not in page 33 it's in page 32 and the author says, "El Bekri le dit d'ascendance Juive et originaire de Berbât, dans le sud de l'Espagne" trans. "El Bekri says he is of Jewish descent and comes from Berbat, in the south of Spain" Again the author is reporting Al-Bakri's claim and it's about Tarif's origin not the tribe as a whole.

Oh yeah So the Encylopaedia of Islam is outdated but your 1908 source "Hébræo-Phéniciens et Judéo-Berbères: introduction à l'histoire des Juifs et du judaisme en Afrique" is not outdated?

Actually you're just misrepresenting John Iskander's views as I explained above. You basically choose to use the half of his note to push your views. And If you read his text you'll find that his views goes against yours.

And Nisan is not a specialist of North African history (not even African history!)

-TheseusHeLl (talk) 08:54, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Oh yeah So the Encylopaedia of Islam is outdated but your 1908 source "Hébræo-Phéniciens et Judéo-Berbères: introduction à l'histoire des Juifs et du judaisme en Afrique" is not outdated? I used other references, much recent than yours. And yes Encylopaedia of Islam is outdated and problematic. "El Bekri says he is of Jewish descent and comes from Berbat, in the south of Spain" How does this contradict the Jewish origin of the Barghawata? Actually you're just misrepresenting John Iskander's views John Iskander mentions that the Barghawata claimed Israelite descent, however, he adds that this is probably a fictional genealogy. He is doubtful of their genealogy, but he does not straightforwardly disagree with it either. And Nisan is not a specialist of North African history (not even African history!) Le Tourneau did not study "North African" history either, he was an Orientalist. --Afer Ephraimite (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@TheseusHeLl:, if Afer Ephraimite continues their EoI is "outdated, unreliable, work of one scholar"-nonsense, contact an Admin. No use wasting your time with someone that refuses to get the point and is not here to build an encyclopedia. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:34, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear:, Judging from his edits, I don't think he's even a new account. -TheseusHeLl (talk) 23:35, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

The Incoherence of of your methods

• Firstly the sources about the Barghwata are scarce and incomplete. The medieval sources are biased and ideologically motivated (like all other sources about heterodox islamic movements)
• Secondly the only controversies are about their Berber origins (if they were Zanata Berbers or Masmuda Berbers or a tribal confederation of multiple Berber tribes) and their religious system (was it an amalgamation of sunni islam, shia islam, Khariji islam and Berber influences or a Berber religion influenced by islam or a pure Berber religion or a corrupted islam with no influences, etc). No Jewish claims were made about them as a whole tribe. The only jewish claims are about Tarif (or his son Salih), their ruler. This claim is based on an interpretation of twelfth and thirteenth-century accounts. These accounts were described by Iskander p:45 as, "they make increasingly polemical and some times ridiculous claims." the example he gave was "the account given in the work of an anonymous historian, in a work entitled Kitab al-istibsar fi ‘aja’ibal-amsar. The author, who appears to have lived in the mid-twelfth century, gave an account of the Barghawata which is almost entirely based upon the reports of al-Bakri and Fadl b. Mufaddal, but without most of the direct quotations of Zammur’s words. He entitles the section in which he deals with the Barghawata, ‘The Account of the Barghawata’s Apostasy’. His account of Salih b. Tarif is clearly polemical." (again the claim is about the ruler) Then he continued, "He begins by saying that he was Jewish, which had not been emphasised in previous works, (his Jewish genealogy through the line of Simeon was mentioned, although unremarked in Zammur’s account). He recounts that Salih travelled to the East and studied under Ghaylan (an accusation found in the earlier work cited by al-Bakri, of course) and learned a great deal of magic." and "It is a topos of Muslim heresiographic literature that Jews or Jewish converts to Islam lead people astray through strange beliefs and esoteric knowledge. The unknown author of this work saw fit to place Salih in that readily understood category" As you can see these accounts are highly polemical and biased. We should not use (wp:primary) these medieval works because they're not Iskandar's views. The author here is just reporting all the works that talked about these tribes (and their leader's claimed descent).

Misrepresentation of sources

Examples

The source	Your misrepresentation	What the source says
Devout Heretics: The Barghawata in Maghribi Historiography	Ancestrally, Barghawata tribes claimed descent from Simeon son of Jacob son of Isaac.	p:51 "13. The fact that the Barghawati ambassador himself claims this as their sacred genealogy, combined with the other names of their leaders such as Yunus (Jonah) and al-Yasa’, or Alisha’ (Elisha), certainly makes Slousch’s (1910) argument about the ‘Jewish connection’ seem more plausible. However, this genealogy—precisely because it is a sacred genealogy—should be understood as a way of giving legitimacy to their line. Since the Jewish presence in that part of North Africa was so ancient and deeply rooted, we can understand the Barghawata’s familiarity with the names, and perhaps with some of the rituals of the Jewish residents, without postulating a genetic relationship between the beliefs of the Barghawata and those of Maghribi Jews." Here in this note the author is talking about p:42 " Tarif’s genealogy was believed to go back to Simeon, son of Jacob, son of Isaac 13"
Histoire de Casablanca, des origines à 1914	After the Arab conquest of North Africa, most African tribes abandoned Judaism for Islam. At the beginning of the 8th century (739-742), several Jewish chieftains formed a coalition led by Maysara al-Matghari in the westernmost part of North Africa, this coalition successfully defeated the Muslims and managed to form their own state on the Atlantic coast between Safi and Salé.	nothing in page 32. p:33 transl. "This Tariff is the father of Sâlih who is said to have created the doctrine of the Berghwâta. He himself had participated in the Kharejite revolt in the north of Morocco, alongside Maïsara el-Matghari, at the death of which he continued the fight in Tamesna. The chronology of events is moreover rather loose; El Bekri and Ibn Khaldoûn do not agree on the dates. there is also doubt about the origins of Tarîf; only Ibn Khaldoûn affirms it Berghwâti and Masmoudi; El Bekri says he is of Jewish descent and comes from Berbât, in the south of Spain (from where, according to him, the name of Berghwâta given later to the sectarians of Sâlih); he also reports that before entering Tamesna, "he exercised royal power among the Zenata and Zouagha".
Hébræo-Phéniciens et Judéo-Berbères: introduction à l'histoire des Juifs et du judaisme en Afrique	OUTDATED (1908)	OUTDATED (1908)

Responses

• I used other references, much recent than yours. And yes Encylopaedia of Islam is outdated and problematic. You mean you misrepresented recent sources and used an 1908 outdated source to push your pov? Sorry but saying that Encylopaedia of Islam is outdated and problematic is your WP:POV and no one in wikipedia or academia supports your claim. John Iskander mentions that the Barghawata claimed Israelite descent. Nope he's talking about Tarif's (and only Tarif not about the Barghawata as a whole) origin in relation to al-Bakri. What you're doing here is called quoting out of context and it's an informal fallacy. To understand the phrase you need to read the passage in its full context (from the second paragraph page:41). The author is just reporting what the four authors (Ibn Hawqal, Ibn Hazm, al-Bakri and Ibn Khaldun) wrote. Le Tourneau did not study "North African" history either, he was an Orientalist. Are you kidding me? He was a historian of Islamic civilization and North Africa.

-TheseusHeLl (talk) 23:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

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