Talk:Operation Mincemeat (musical)

Hester Leggett

There has been some recent press coverage of Hester Leggett: e.g. The Stage, What's On Stage and "A blue plaque for Hester". Martinevans123 (talk) 12:11, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Casting tables

@Margot1993 Ensemble actors can be listed in narrative form in the production history section, but they do not belong on the cast table! They clutter the tables. Only principal actors/characters belong on the tables. Also, this show does not have an ensemble. It is a cast of 5 who alternate roles throughout the show. The other actors you are referring to are understudies who also do not belong on cast tables. Smitty1999 (talk) 21:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Understudies do belong on cast tables (especially when they have performed in over half the shows and prevented the show from being cancelled). I wrote them as ‘ensemble’ as it is an ensemble cast, which both Avalon and Spitlip (the producer and writers) acknowledge and champion. All cast should be acknowledged in a production. Like it or not they are an intrinsic part of the history of any production and especially this show on the West End and should not be erased because of ‘clutter’ or a misunderstanding of what their role is in the production. I’m sure a solution can be found instead of just deleting everything. Happy to list as understudies in a different table but clutter is not an excuse to erase someone’s contribution to a show. Margot1993 (talk) 00:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Actually they do not. They can clutter casting tables and creating a new one is completely unnecessary. The names can be listed in narrative form in the production history section, but per WP:MUSICALS, casting tables are meant for principal actors/original casts only. No other musical pages on here have ensemble or understudies listed on the casting tables. Again, they can either be listed in narrative form in the production history section or place a source. If you wish to get thoughts from others, then start a discussion topic on WP:MUSICALS. Smitty1999 (talk) 00:41, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I look forward to you editing the Hex Musical casting table. Shall inform you of other tables that are ‘cluttered’ with unnecessary ensemble and understudies as and when I find them Margot1993 (talk) 07:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

@Margot1993 I have reached out to a user who is an expert on this subject. Please wait on taking any other actions until I hear back from them. No need for a WP:EDITWAR. Smitty1999 (talk) 00:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Understudies do not belong in casting tables, and really only WP:NOTABLE ones need to be listed in the Productions section. Wikipedia is not for "acknowledging" people. It is a general-readership encyclopedia, and our job is to present the most important information about the musical and its major productions. If an understudy performed in more than half of the performances, and this was written about by a newspaper or other independent source, it can be mentioned and properly cited in the Productions section. Of course, a theatre encyclopedia might present the full cast, as do various books and websites, but we do not. BTW, Smitty, we should not include the English language parameter in citations. This is English Wikipedia, so obviously most sources are in English. Include the parameter, however, for foreign-language sources. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I just want to say that I'm on your team, @Margot1993. I mean, if there are rules that say you can't, then I guess so be it, but if there are understudies that, as you say, performed in half the shows and kept the show from being cancelled, even if they apparently can't be in the cast table, I would certainly think there should be room for that story in the body of the article as it would seem very relevant to the history of the production? Wikipedian339 (talk) 20:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Open-Ended Run

@Smitty1999 I saw your edit, but I can't find any sources that say the run is now open-ended. The citation provided makes no such claim, it says only "Operation Mincemeat ... has extended its run again ... The show will now play until 16 November 2024." This is still a limited run, just one that has been far extended. If you can show me a source stating otherwise, please do. Kanji dc (talk) 03:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@Kanji dc actually it's not a limited run. It has been playing in the West End for over a year. Due to the popular demand of the show, it keeps extending which makes it an open-ended run. The show has not confirmed if its current extension to November of this year is the last extension, otherwise, they would've mentioned that in the sourcing as its "final extension." There has even been open auditions for a potential cast change. This show doesn't seem to be leaving any time soon. Smitty1999 (talk) 09:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree it's likely to be extended again, but the fact that they announce extensions at all, instead of simply not listing a closing date, means that it is in fact still considered a limited run in the strict definition of the term. I may be wrong, but the only sense in which I've seen the phrase "open-ended run" apply is when the show's closing date is not scheduled (or when a closing date is announced after having previously not had a scheduled closing date). Operation Mincemeat has had a closing date scheduled from the beginning of its run and has then been extended past that, so the run is still limited. Regardless of whether or not this does turn out to be final extension it is still not to be assumed that the show will be extended past 16 November. Kanji dc (talk) 18:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

No, not necessarily. People can see how long it is running when they go to book tickets. Unless they label the next extension as the "final extension," then it is an open ended run. Smitty1999 (talk) 18:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I've gone to the website where one can buy tickets, and they are only selling tickets out to 16 November 2024, per the most recent extension. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but if I could buy tickets further out, then sure, it would be open-ended. But right now, there is a scheduled closing date, and it is 16 November. You can even see that people seem to be treating this as a closing date, because the final show is more sold out than other shows at the same time on the same day of the week. I don't understand why the qualification of "final extension" is necessary. If when it opened it was a limited run, and when it was extended first, it was still a limited run, at what point does it suddenly become open-ended? The implication of an extension is that it is still a limited run. Open-ended runs do not have a scheduled closing date, even one that could be extended, until one is announced. If it has a scheduled closing date from the beginning it is a limited run. I know I'm repeating myself a lot here but I can't understand how calling it open-ended is accurate.

But, since it seems we're not going to come to an agreement on the semantics here, I propose amending the text of the article to remove any reference to limited run, closing date, or open-ended run. Something like: "Originally scheduled to close on 9 July 2023, the production has been extended multiple times after receiving rave reviews from audiences and critics, most recently being extended until 16 November 2024." Kanji dc (talk) 17:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

The date in this case does not matter unless it is officially announced as the "final extension". There are no signs of this show closing any time soon. This was labeled originally as a limited run, yes, but due to the popular demand from advance ticket sales, that's why it has been extended. Other shows announce how long they are extending advance sales into. For example, there was an article I read saying how the Broadway production of MJ The Musical has extended ticket sales into February 2025. It has been running on Broadway for over two and a half years. The same thing applies to Mincemeat as it has been running for over a year. SIX was supposed to be a "limited run" as well, but due to its popularity and advanced ticket sales, it became an open-ended run. Overall, Mincemeat is not limited anymore. If/when a closing notice is posted, THEN, we can put a date on it, but until then, it shall remain an open-ended run. Smitty1999 (talk) 18:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, I've just been informed that "extension" carries a different connotation on the West End vs. Broadway because of how London theatre works, which I was not aware of. On Broadway, if a show is announced with a final date, and then extended, it is assumed to remain a limited run. I have learned this is not the case on the West End. Your example with MJ is analogous but is not generally called an extension in Broadway parlance, just a new batch of tickets being released. I am sorry for the confusion and understand now why you were pointing out the lack of the term "final extension". Kanji dc (talk) 19:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)