Talk:List of Orientalist artists

Is this article really needed?

I'm not sure why we need both a list of orientalist artists and a category for orientalist painters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Orientalist_painters). Surely this leads to unncecessary duplication? In any case, I have added a few new names to the list. I came across these names when I was adding some new material to two unrelated articles and thought it was advantageous to add these. It might be worth noting that many of the artists' names in the Category do not appear in this listing (e.g. Gaste, Goodall, Glisanti). And, some of the names in this listing do not appear in the Category e.g. D.S. Margoliouth, Charles D'Oyly, Jose Navarro Llorens and others. This is one of the major problems with duplicating content - it gives rise to all manner of inconsistencies. BronHiggs (talk)

Update: I have added more than 200 names to the list. All artists with articles in the English version of WP have been added to the Category:Orientalist painters. Those who do not yet have articles have been listed, but not linked. (This does not apply to names that were redlinked before I began working on this project - and artists that were redlinked previously remain so.) I have also upgraded the content on a number of articles to expand the coverage. I have only done this where the article consisted of 1-3 sentences. All added content has been properly referenced, and in a few cases I was able to improve on the pre-existing references. There are many American Orientalist artists who have not been listed, however many of these are minor figures. I fear that the list will become for too long and unwieldly if I continue adding names. BronHiggs (talk) 02:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Active editing (2018)

I am currently actively editing this page.

The compiled reference list is being converted into line references, because another similar list had all non-referenced and non-linked items deleted with the editor claiming that the compiled list of refs was "useless."
Additional references are being added to artists, who although they do have their own wiki articles, have been challenged as not being Orientalists. Apparently, the opinions of art historians and curators are not be to taken into consideration, when an editor knows that they are not Orientalist artists. Therefore I am adding multiple references to these lines in an attempt to avert arguments and avoid unwanted deletions.
Books and articles in the compiled reference list that are not used in the individual line references will be converted to further reading
Additional names are being added as they reveal themselves during this process.
All names are being added to the relevant category as they are added to this listing

BronHiggs (talk) 05:07, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This and the category have large numbers of artists who are not in the slightest bit Orientalist, and where are the references? For example: Josep Arrau i Barba, José Arpa, Rodolfo Amoedo, Francesco Saverio Altamura, Christoph Ludwig Agricola, John Collier (painter), Augustus John.... Johnbod (talk) 02:57, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For the purpose of this listing, as with other similar listings, artists with their own WP articles are assumed to be notable, those without WP pages have a reference included. The explanatory note at the top of the page clearly states that not all of the artist's work is Orientalist. For example, there are sources that point out the Christoph Ludwig Agricola's compositions often included men dressed in Oriental costume, and while this may have been one of his favourite figures, he also painted birds and ancient ruins. I am going by what the sources have said, rather than what assertions WP editors might make. For instance, both Josep Arrau i Barba, José Arpa are named as Orientalists in E.D. Caso's book, Les Orientalistes de l'école Espagnole, ACR edition, 1997 on pages 272 and 273 respectively.

Incidentally, I am no longer engaged in active editing of this page, so do whatever you will with it. I am long past caring. BronHiggs (talk) 04:39, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is not whether the artist is notable, but whether they are Orientalist. Remember that all categories are required to be "defining" for each article included in them. A rough test of what is "defining" is that a lead para of an article on the subject at say GA level would be defective if it omits the information relevant to the category. A very high proportion of the artists currently on the list fail this test. Johnbod (talk) 14:00, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's a list! Lists are rated as "lists" and will never gain GA status. All the artists on this list have been identified as Orientalists in at least one text on Orientalist artists. BronHiggs (talk) 21:23, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, what I am saying is that such mentions do not make it defining for them, so at least they should not be in the category. The GA bit was about a rough measure of what "defining" means in this context. That Augustus John painted a portrait of Lawrence of Arabia (in Chelsea) in his Arab costume does not make him an Orientalist painter, any more than Joshua Reynolds, Gavin Hamilton, Thomas Phillips or other portraitists who painted the odd returned traveller in an exotic costume. I am very dubious that such artists have actually "been identified as Orientalists". Johnbod (talk) 03:51, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, do whatever you will. I am a long way past caring and am only semi-active on Wikipedia these days. BronHiggs (talk) 04:10, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]