Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Loretta Scott Crew

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The Bushranger _{One ping only} 12:13, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Loretta Scott Crew

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Possible hoax. According to this site, this entry is a deliberate hoax, which found its way into books afterwards. While I can't verify this (a cursory check of the history of S'more, where this hoax would have probably originated, shows no entries for her before the book was mentioned), it is worrying that there seem to be no pre-2009 sources about this person. So if anyone can check whether it is really included in that 2009 book, and whether there are older sources to verify this (or whether that 2009 book gives any indication of how they found the name of the inventor of the S'mores), it would be really helpful. Post-2009 sources have no value here, since they all repeat either the book, or the Wikipedia claim about the book. Fram (talk) 09:03, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I love a good mystery: Definitely worth investigating, but that blogpost appears incorrect in one major respect. Unless there is hidden history of an earlier deleted version, the first version of this Wikipedia article was created on 1 July 2009 and already included the reference to the Lilleen book.[1]. Here is a screenshot of what the Lillien book says:[2], it does credit Crew. The Lillien book was released on 14 April 2009. Apparently a 2007 book by Lisa Adams dates its creation at least to 1927 as well[3], but that book does not mention Crew. Certainly a recipe for "Some More" did appear in the 1927 Girl Scouts Book "Tramping and Trailing"[4]. I'll see what else I can find.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 14:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I assumed that they meant that they included her name in the Smore's article, not in the Loretta article, but some spot checks couldn't find any mention of Crew before the "deadline" either. Thanks for checking this out anyway! Fram (talk) 14:57, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll keep looking. From some checking, Crew's name and the book reference was added to the S'mores article by an IP editor on 18 June 2009.[5]. A different IP removed the reference on 31 Dec 2009.[6], stating "False statement - Loretta Scott Crew did not create s'mores and it was falsely "cited" as being in the Girl Scout handbook." The first IP then re-added the claim on 11 February 2011.[7]. I did see other attempts to name an inventor in the S'mores history, none of which were sourced.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 15:11, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More sleuthing: On 4 Oct 2004, an IP added to S'more that "a young girl named xxxxxxxxx coined this phrase, and this concoction, in 1927 while camping on the banks of the Ohio river on a chilly night."[8]. Suffice it to say this can be verified to be a prank about a real person who is way too young to have been in the Girl Scouts in 1927. In Oct 2005 the claim was removed, per the talk page comment at Talk:S'more#unsourced_claim. However, even today you can google the 2004 claim and find some old blog-type entries which repeat it. It seems likely to me that the blogpost which Fram cites in the nomination is based on this original vandalism, but the facts got confused over years of re-telling. The 2009 Lillien book suggests that the 1927 recipe credits Loretta Scott Crew, but that is wrong. The question is, where did Lillien get this info? I am reaching out to her, but she's a fairly popular writer, we'll see if I can get a response.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 19:11, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I've found proof S'mores existed before the 1927 book -- here's a news article from 1925 describing "some mores".[9] The Sept 9, 1925 Norwalk Hour notes that Camp Andree serves "Some-Mores", which "consist of a graham cracker on which is placed a piece of Hershey chocolate, a toasted marshmallow, another piece of chocolate and a graham cracker." More importantly, though "some mores" have been reported on numerous times in news articles from the late 1920s through the 1960s, never as an inventor identified.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 20:06, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I know I'm far beyond most everyone's interest level now, but: The 1927 Tramping guide was published by the Girl Scouts, Inc. out of New York City. Camp Andree is located just north of New York City, and founded in 1921 by the NYC-based parents of Andree Clark (who died at age 16, but her parents learned after her death from her journals of her love for scouting). I see reports that by 1926 the Edith Macy Conference Center next to the Camp was being used to train scout leaders; indeed the 1925 article I cited above shows that "Some mores" were "introduced" as a "Camp Andree dish" to a scout leader training session. (And that was not the first training session.[10].) So it would appear S'mores were probably invented between 1921 and 1925 at Camp Andree. But as to who created then, this 2007 news article has the answer (in a riddle!)[11]. (spoiler: "no one knows").--Milowent • ^hasspoken 21:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. There are 2 different issues at stake here, only the first of which is an AfD issue:

(1) Is Lorreta Scott Crew sufficiently notable to be the subject of a biographical article? As far as I can see from some searching, even assuming the sources are all correct to credit her as the inventor of s'mores, we don't know one single other thing to say about her. No obituary, no interview, no family memoir, nothing. So, whether it's a hoax or not, there's no basis for a separate article. Delete.

(2) Should she be mentioned at S'more? That should be decided through our usual consensus practices. At the moment, I'd lean to including it in some form such as "Some sources credit the invention to a troop leader named Loretta Scott Crew, but further details have not been identified and the basis for this attribution is unclear", citing the Lisa Lillien book and maybe another news and/or official source such as [12]. If clear evidence of a hoax turns up, that could be added instead. The reason I would include her, hoax or not, is that, otherwise, we will see misinformation added over and over to the article. But ultimately that is a matter for the editing process.

--Arxiloxos (talk) 18:40, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Arxiloxos on point 1. There's no basis for notability based on available sourcing. On point 2, every source appears to derive from the 2009 book mention, and that book mention appears to be wrong, as the 1927 book does not credit anyone with the invention. But we can resolve that issue outside this AfD.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 18:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISPEANUTBUTTER☆★ 07:16, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.